My previous post drew controversy that I would dare contradict Dr. Amy in insisting that Dr. Odent was right about birth physiology, namely that mammalian birth involved the BONDING hormone Oxytocin, which is in fact different from the synthetic variety, best known as Pitocin. The issue was basically that Odent was supposedly an out-of-touch misogynist for tricking women into believing they were birthing goddesses when they really aren’t, guilting women into undergoing the pain of childbirth. And oh, btw, Oxytocin doesn’t actually bond people and Pitocin does exactly the same things for the body. Right.
Enter “troll” (not my label) Marlo. 
She is vocal in the anti-NCB community and feels that pain-free childbirth is a lie, Michel Odent is an unapologetic sexist and not a man of science nor a respected doctor. We did a back and forth in comments in my previous post, and she had this to say:
“Find me some women OBGYNs who are down with it & have them guest post.”
Ask and ye shall receive… I may not have a guest post from Dr. Buckley (yet?!), but I do have her response to the topic, as it is easily available. Enjoy!
Sarah J Buckley is a trained GP/family physician with qualifications in GP-obstetrics and family planning. Dr Buckley has presented at numerous conferences in Australia, New Zealand, the US and Canada, lecturing to midwives, nurses, physicians, obstetricians, doulas, and childbirth educators…
And of course, our man Odent has a fabulous endorsement of the respected Doctor:
“Sarah Buckley is precious, because she is bilingual. She can speak the language of a mother who gave birth to her four children at home. She can also speak like a medical doctor. By intermingling the language of the heart and the scientific language she is driving the history of childbirth towards a radical and inspiring new direction.”
Michel Odent MD, author and natural birth pioneer
Already we have TWO respected doctors who believe natural birth, oxytocin, and mammalian physiology are not just myths. Odent was discredited for his age, for his beliefs, and even for having a penis (“men will never understand“, Marlo holds). He was accused of being a general surgeon, and not an OB, even though Odent did his initial training in general surgery and was in charge of the surgical unit and the maternity unit at the Pithiviers state hospital (1962–1985). Now, Dr. Buckley is a woman, has had home births, and is qualified in the field of obstetrics. Let’s hear more of what Dr. Buckley has to say:
Perhaps the best-known birth hormone is oxytocin, the hormone of love, which is secreted during sexual activity, male and female orgasm, birth, and breastfeeding. Oxytocin engenders feelings of love and altruism; as Michel Odent says, “Whatever the facet of Love we consider, oxytocin is involved.”(1)For the baby also, birth is an exciting and stressful event, reflected in high CA levels (27). These assist the baby during birth by protecting against the effects of hypoxia (lack of oxygen) and subsequent acidosis.
UNDISTURBED BIRTH
Undisturbed birth is exceedingly rare in our culture, even in birth centers and home births.
Two factors that disturb birth in all mammals are firstly being in an unfamiliar place and secondly the presence of an observer. Feelings of safety and privacy thus seem to be fundamental. Yet the entire system of Western obstetrics is devoted to observing pregnant and birthing women, by both people and machines, and when birth isn’t going smoothly, obstetricians respond with yet more intense observation. It is indeed amazing that any woman can give birth under such conditions.
Synthetic oxytocin [AKA PITOCIN] administered in labor does not act like the body’s own oxytocin. First, syntocinon-induced contractions are different from natural contractions, and these differences can cause a reduced blood flow to the baby. For example, waves can occur almost on top of each other when too high a dose of synthetic oxytocin is given, and it also causes the resting tone of the uterus to increase (33).
Second, oxytocin, synthetic or not, cannot cross from the body to the brain through the blood-brain barrier. This means that syntocinon, introduced into the body by injection or drip, does not act as the hormone of love. However, it does provide the hormonal system with negative feedback—that is, oxytocin receptors in the laboring woman’s body detect high levels of oxytocin and signal the brain to reduce production. We know that women with syntocinon infusions are at higher risk of bleeding after the birth, because their own oxytocin production has been shut down. But we do not know the psychological effects of giving birth without the peak levels of oxytocin that nature prescribes for all mammalian species.
For more from the very esteemed Dr. Buckley, read her article on Ecstatic Birth. Or is she just a misogynist idiot, too?
theperfectbirth 
BELIEVE in oxytocin? um, its a hormone in our body and all of us who have experienced it are here to tell the lovely story all about it…BELIEVE in painless birth? talk to the ladies who have experienced it. DUH!!!
once again i will say it, don’t believe in homebirth? certain midwives? DON’T HAVE ONE! DON’T HIRE ONE. its as easy as that. and leave us who love our power, love our peace, love our undisturbed births ALONE.
AMEN!!! You couldn’t have said that better!
By the way, Margarita knows I’m responding to you here. She wants to know why you haven’t learned anything from her baby’s death.
Well hellllooooo Darby Partner! Like that oxytocin that killed Margarita’s baby? Is your power so great it cancels out how you destroyed her life? Undisturbed as in: I can’t be bothered to transport her even though her labor is grossly abnormal?
Edited: Did not realize Addie was not speaking to me.
Actually, Elizabeth, I ‘m responding to Kavita, who is the internet psuedonym of Margarita’s soi-disant midwife. And I think she has a hell of a lot of nerve to comment of various birth blogs, as she does from time to time since July 24. If she failed to properly take care of her client, who is she to weigh in here? And yes, Margarita is my friend.
Addie, I see that now. I made some references and some corrections. (Read on…)
kavita? As in kavita Darby Rosepetal? As in Darby Partner? Margarita has told me quite a lot about her, about how she buried her little baby because she was forced to labor for eight days and ignored when she pleaded for a transfer. About how her phone was taken away and how Darby didn’t even have a bulb to suction her unresponsive baby. How Darby couldn’t even figure out how to do CPR. She posted pictures of her beautiful boy that she should be holding today but Darby didn’t have the training to tell when a mother and baby were in trouble. Of course, “Kavita” if that’s not you then I beg your pardon. Elizabeth, I apologize, I read that comment and my blood boiled for my friend’s broken heart. I promised myself I wasn’t going to engage in pointless debates when I really don’t disagree with a mother’s desire to birth on her own terms. I do disagree with untrained midwives and the damage they cause. Because of this I felt morally compelled to leave this bitter comment.
Oh, I see… I’ve made an error. That comment wasn’t to me, that was to Kavita.
For misunderstanding only, I apologize. I received an e-mail notification without knowing WHO it was aimed at.
Kavita (if you are the same one they speak of), you may respond with your side if you wish. It is welcomed here. For what it’s worth, I am interested in hearing every side of the story, and I listen with patience and peace. I reserve judgment. Unfortunately I do not know Margarita, but I understand her version suggests…. very serious badness.
tara is right. If this is some other kavita (but so far it hasn’t been) I do apologize. Those of us who know Margarita feel so powerless to do anything about her loss. But the very least we can do is speak up when we encounter the person who failed to protect her and Shahzad and Zahid.
Thank you Elizabeth, for letting us speak.
What about Christiane Northrup? I’m sure she would understand the finer points of endogenous oxytocin 🙂
I’ll bite! I’m a woman and an OB who “believes in Odent, oxytocin and physiology”. There are consequences to disturbing birth. And of course synthetic oxytocin does not behave the same way as the naturally occurring stuff, in the same way that synthetic insulin doesn’t behave the same way as “natural” insulin.
Right Alison. We should deny diabetic patients who no longer make their own insulin or don’t make enough synthetic injectable insulin because it’s just not natural, and just let them fade away.
But that’s not at all what the Dr. said, Heather.
What we are talking about here is giving the body the chance to perform the functions it will naturally. This is opposed to what you all suggest, which is circumventing/undermining the body and it’s process completely, and artificially doing the body’s job for it with negative effects and consequences.
How that’s so radical is beyond me.
Seriously. A doctor recommending that their diabetic patient who needs insulin, to not use it and instead let the body perform naturally?
If the pancreas no longer manufacturers insulin, the patient dies because it cannot use glucose. Of course it’s a natural death. The patient would simply slip into a coma and eventually stop breathing.
That’s not what she said at all? She said that synthetic insulin acts differently than naturally produced insulin. How did you get “we should take away insulin shots from all diabetics and let them DIE!!!” Am I lacking in reading skills or something?
You are most certainly not (lacking reading skills). This is just what happens when trolls run amok. AKA, troll logic, or Trolls Gone Wild. Rationality is completely dismissed, psychological games and table turning take place, including red herrings and bait and switch tactics. Remain confident that you still have a hold on reality, and only take what they say with a grain of salt– that way you don’t get sucked into their black hole abyss, where they crown themselves queens of logic and everyone else is always wrong and evil.
The difference being that pitocin is, in most practices, routinely administered to laboring women against medical evidence when she doesn’t dilate exactly one centimeter per hour. An endocrinologist who sets standing orders for insulin for all patients on the assumption that their pancreases won’t perform normally (on the justification that ‘we can just turn it off later) should be sued for malpractice.
you’re nobody until dr.amy hates you.
LOL– ’tis true, I suppose. I had been referenced by her before, sort of anonymously. I don’t think she knew who I was. Now she’s directly linking my blog and calling me by name? Ruh roh…
I must not be working hard enough 😦
Awwww…. Nah, of course you are. Anyway, it’s a blessing to fly under her radar. I wish I could pretend that whole world didn’t exist, myself. Do you have any blogs or sites or anything, Momma?
Not anymore. I used to but took it down after I had my son — it was just taking up too much of my free time and I really reprioritized after everything that happened with his pregnancy/birth — another silver lining to a very dark cloud 🙂
dokta maimy is the nobody!
http://theskepticalmother.blogspot.com/2011/10/will-real-dr-amy-please-stand-up.html#comment-form
Love Sammy!
Thank you for this!
Ladies, you’re welcome, and I seriously love you all. Seriously. ❤
Isis, thank you for giving me some food for thought!
I do have on objection to something Dr Buckley says — which is that natural oxytocin doesn’t cross the blood-brain barrier. While technically true once released into the blood stream, oxytocin is produced BY the brain and therefore isn’t subject to the blood-brain barrier until it is released into the blood stream. When women are allowed to labor naturally their brains are ALREADY saturated in the stuff. They don’t need it from the blood stream. It’s in the brain already.
Just a technicality, but still — it does make a difference since pitocin is introduced into the blood stream and IS subject to the blood-brain barrier. 🙂
I was curious about that and thinking of that, myself.
Yes, I thought that was implied, but should have been directly stated for those who don’t understand that oxytocin produced in the body already *is* in the brain, to avoid confusion.
Dr. Buckley didn’t say that natural oxytocin doesn’t cross the blood-brain barrier. Someone misread or misquoted her. It is Pitocin/Syntocinon that doesn’t cross the blood-brain barrier, and isn’t emitted in pulsatile form, as natural oxytocin is. She was kind enough to provide me with some of her materials while I was writing my dissertation on the relationship between Pitocin use at birth and psychosocial functioning at age three. By the way, the brain isn’t the only part of the body that produces oxytocin, and the uterus isn’t the only place that has oxytocin receptors. It’s a fascinating hormone with multiple functions we’re still only the beginning of learning about.
Interesting that certain people who specifically said that they wanted to hear it from female OB’s, haven’t responded….ya’ think it’s because they are so busy considering the information like they said they would? 😉
Stick around and watch, Anne… the plot thickens.
I missed it…that’s what happens I guess when one gets busy actually living one’s life instead of looking for fights…silly me!
It’s amazing how many murderous midwives and wannabe murderous midwives hang out here. Hi, Anne!
Bambi, you really are in no position to be judging others. To you, the very word “midwife” implies death. Besides, if it weren’t for “murderous midwives”, what ever would you do with your time?
Hi Bambi!
So glad you’re here and address me personally….that must mean that you are interested in thinking for yourself instead of blindly believing the lies you’ve been told. What? You didn’t know you’d been lied to? Oh, sorry. My mistake. Please continue believing stories just because you read them on the internet. If you read the story carefully, you could see several inconsistencies, even if you don’t know which parts are lies. Add the parts that are outright, witnessed LIES, that’s right, LIES and the story falls apart.
You know nothing about me or my practice and are blinded to anything I might tell you. I am truly sorry for your story. I’ve read it, sadly though, since I KNOW that some moms see the events differently in their birth and othes LIE, (not saying you did, just that I know for a fact that some have, ya know, since I was there as were others who have confirmed my recollections) I have the same kind of blinders on now that you do and read everybody’s story knowing there are two sides to every story. I do not defend negligence in any profession…there are really bad midwives, doctors, teachers, priests…but that doesn’t mean all of them are bad.
I wish you peace in your life.
And…. this is just an opinion! one woman can have a pain free birth doesnt assure another to enjoy the same kind of birth!
If you had a painless birth , wonderful!!! good for you!! that you want to let women know it is possible , GREAT! but dont go around and tell women “do this that, read this book, do this class….ect…and you too can have a painless birth” because this is just setting some of them for failure!
I agree that so many factors dictate how a woman’s birth can go. My birth itself was NOT painless; however, I was prepared for that. With enough preparation and wisdom, a woman has a very good chance at an easy birth… but you’d rather me not encourage that? For fear of making other women feel like failures? MY birth hurt and *I* didn’t feel like a failure. There is peace in knowing you’ve done all you could.
Many women attack others… maybe they do not have the same peace?
It’s not that I guarantee perfection if you read this book, take this class, etc. It’s that I realize the near-hopelessness of a peaceful pain free, naturally birth WITHOUT heeding our physiological needs. I express warning, and then I offer insight on how to avoid the traumas I had experienced. I hope that helps.
I have had 6 children, 5 VBAC’s and NO painless childbirth….in 14 years of serving women, I have seen only a handful of what even looked painless to me, not even sure that the mother would have expressed it as painless. I’m not even sure where we got that the goal was ‘painless.’ I never considered myself or any other mom a failure for experiencing pain or even for choosing to forgo it. The deal is, when did we decide that life, birth, or death had to be pain free to be successful? I have NEVER told a mother in prenatal care or Lamaze classes to expect painless. I’ve even, recommended pain relief to moms who were tired or struggling and I’ve even HAD epidurals…imagine that! What is wrong with encouraging women to have undisturbed births and providing just a modicum of counter to the abundance of propaganda out there about how terrible birth is? It isn’t like my telling a mom that her body CAN do this and it MIGHT NOT be the worst day of her life, prevents her from knowing there are pain relief options. I have yet to encounter a woman who doesn’t know that!
I had four extremely painful births, I’ve read all the pain-free literature and agree with much of it, and I absolutely do *not* feel like a failure. I feel like a triumphant warrior and a goddess. That’s because I use my brain to recognize that there are many factors involved, some of which we are not in control of. But I agree with you that the the guarantee of painless birth is wrong, either born of ignorance or a desire to profit off others’ ignorance. If only people would think for themselves.
Linda, I thought that comment was perfect, and thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment on my blog. I have much respect for you.
and no one dies from the pain!
I agree. Epidurals do not guarantee painless births. You just get stuck with a different kind of pain. How many clients have I supported who’ve ended up with ineffective epidurals, one who ended up getting knocked out with a GA because she could feel them cutting into her but they wouldn’t listen, another who ended up with headaches for weeks, most who ended up with the full cascade on intervention, another who ended up with a 7cm haemotoma from an episiotomy after her epidural, since she could not longer get into an active position, and could not sit up for 5 months afterwards … labour pain feels like strong muscles working hard, like when your thighs burn when cycling uphill, I’ll take than any day over an epidural that supposedly stops “pain” but takes away mobility, gravity and privacy and increases the likelihood of an instrumental vaginal birth (ouch), episiotomy (ouch) or c/s. I have seen epidurals used judiciously in long didffficult labours but in those cases the obstetricians warned the mothers honestly of the risks of epidurals so they could weigh the pros and cons. Glad they are available for such situations but they certainly do not guarantee painless births.
They are still waiting for the female OB guest post. Per Sarah J Buckley MD website she is a family physician/GP, which wouldn’t be an OB/GYN.
Yes, which is why I noted that she is also qualified in Obstetrics.
Not to mention this is really just an argument in semantics, since you don’t have to be specifically an OB to know how Oxytocin and Pit work…
Not to mention that previous comment here was by Dr. Allison Barrett, OB, who affirmed these facts…
Not to mention the comment here bringing up Dr. Christiane Northup, OB/GYN, who states: Labor induction with pitocin decreases oxytocin– the bonding hormone– a hormone that sets the stage for a lifetime of loving.
No, when I bring the facts, when others do too, you will always have your meaningless semantics to fall on. Next it will be: “but they didn’t guest post.“
Oh, you’re right. I guess that proves everything.
I actually looked her up as soon as I read this article. According to her medical credentials she IS a gynecologist, but not an OB.
http://mamabirth.blogspot.com/2011/12/ob-pushing-her-baby-out-at-home-say-it.html
I guess she is either not an obstetrician or she is not a woman or she is not a mother. Hmmm … maybe she faked it! “Say it ain’t so” indeed.
When people have their minds made up, no one and no experience and no amount of expert witness testimony or literature will ever be good enough.
Oh isn’t this adorable. All this attention on me. Anne, of course you would find this informative. It goes right along with everything you want to believe is so magical about childbirth and everything you want to hide. I hardly think you’re qualified to comment on any of this stuff, calling yourself a midwife with nothing more than a high school diploma. Go to college and take some science courses– oh yes, and tell your patients that you have no education upfront– and maybe I’ll regain some respect for you.
And yes, I’m waiting for that guest post from a lady OB/GYN– a real *specialist*– not someone with “experience” or “background” in gynecology.
Marlo, please read the other comments here and/or in the previous post. We’ve had TWO female OBs weigh in, in person AND via quote, and that doesn’t count Dr. Buckley… or did you miss that?
With regards to you attacking midwives here, I don’t really think that can be taken seriously. For those of us who’ve read your birth story, we know how reluctant and scared you always were when it came to natural birth, and God knows why you ever even attempted it when you’re really so NOT into it… maybe you felt that just because you *could*, you should? You let everyone pull on your strings and shame you, from doctors who make suggestions, to parents who judge you, to Dr. Amy fans who initiate you. All that criticism has weighed heavy on you and you’ve allowed everyone to make you this unhappy person that you are today. I am guessing even your husband doesn’t get it… get how you felt, get how birth affected you so deeply, or see why natural birth was even worth it.
So far you haven’t had a truly brave, free, or informed bone in your body about this. You’ve just been a puppet on strings, this whole time. Howsabout you cut those strings? Otherwise you’ll be forever waiting for “facts” (like what we have brought you here) that were delivered at your feet from Day One, that you just chose to kept looking right on past… out of fear… of your own inadequacy. So afraid to give yourself an honest chance, but too afraid of letting everybody else down. You’re enslaving yourself. Break away. Then those of us who can see you for what you really are will have a renewed respect for you. Don’t you deserve that?
Now, while this sounds yet again harsh, I want to reiterate to you– I have been where you were/are. I had midwives, I tried going natural, and experienced an excruciating time that really messed me up inside. Afterward I was mad at my midwives, mad at the seeming “lies” that natural birth posed, mad that it seemed like everyone else could do it but not me. And, I’m here to tell you, these perceptions of reality are an illusion. It’s all false! We were never less than. There were explanations to why these things happened to us, all explainable by unbiased science. Natural birth is actually very possible, without horror. And, although we have our feelings about going with midwives in the future, they are actually not ALL to blame. Weird, huh? Homebirth and natural birth, neither! I know, right? It’s crazy that those things are actually real, okay, safe, and work for most people if they gave it the proper INFORMED chance. So please, woman to woman, if you want to get beyond the pain and get over the hurt, open up to me. I have nothing to gain, I’m only putting myself out here for you, and I truly wish peace for you. I want you to have help, and for things to make sense for you again (in not such a hateful and cruel way, I mean). What you’re carrying is too heavy, too depressing/oppressing… and how long can you really go on that way? Do you want to?
I have NOTHING to hide. My stats are available. My training is available and, not that it’s any of your business, but I have been to college…happened to take science classes…biology, chemistry and psychology. I don’t, in fact believe that childbirth is MAGICAL…i believe it is NORMAL. In your case, psychology was the most useful of the bunch. I don’t, in fact believe that childbirth is MAGICAL…i believe it is NORMAL.
I frankly don’t care if you have respect for me. You’ve lied about me on public forums, so I think that respect is out the window.
go anne.. i agree with you totally
i too went to college and and dont know the words to that song the scarecrow sings> people just need to stop living in their fear..
..
Find 3 neurologists and 3 biochemists who think you all aren’t full of shit and maybe you’ll deserve the hits you receive on your trashy gossip rag of a page.
See, this is the problem. Keep upping the ante, upping the ante. It will never BE good enough. If I succeed in finding now 3 neurologists and 3 biochemists (that’s SIX experts, not the one female OB/GYN as stated first), someone will then come in and be all, “Yeah, but show me 10 descendants of Einstein who agree! THEN maybe I’ll believe this shit.”
We can keep talking to you and finding resources ’til we’re blue in the face, but it has ALWAYS been an exercise in futility. Some people will never agree, just as there are still people who think climate change is a myth. You can name them scientists who support it (“oh, they’ve been paid off.”). You can show them the global catastrophes, the melting caps, etc. (“oh, how do I know that’s from global warming or anything I do? show me the evidence. that’s just a fluke. it’s the same weather we’ve always been having.”). There comes a point where “show me the evidence” is obviously not a legitimate request, but a neverending errand we are all sent on in an effort to stall any true understanding or agreement.
I think the thought process is something like this: I know I can outlast them. I can keep asking for evidence and keep saying what they’ve shown is never good enough. Then, when they give up, I’ll declare myself the winner because they never met my increasingly unreasonable standards. So, therefore, all I have to do is outlast them in this fight.
Well, go fuck yourself. Be in denial. Plenty of experts have seen it, and besides that, many women have experienced this. We don’t need your bullshit approval. People who repeatedly act as if obvious things are myths are too arrogant to be credible in serious adult discussions. You’re dismissed.
you know what they say about the first person who loose their cool…..
No I don’t, but it can’t be good, right? Luckily it wasn’t me. 🙂
I guess it’s pointless to point out that YOU have made a hit on this page…
lol…. idiots.
*shrug* I love my little girl 100% and never had a single contraction.
LIkewise. Two c/s before labor even began for me. I have a fierce bond with both of my kids. Love them to bits. In fact, I loved them deeply from the moment I knew they were growing inside of me.
I don’t get why some harp on the only acceptable birth being one where you push a baby out of your vagina in your living room, most likely with a midwife who did some correspondence “education” on childbirth and exclusively and extensively researched on google?
The Man is not out to get you, ladies. Not even with injectable insulin should one be diabetic.
It’s becaaaaaause, there are healthier ways to do things. Sure, no one should rag on you for hitting the fast food joint, but don’t shit on the people eating all organic. Know what I’m saying?
Don’t let it be so threatening to you, if you’re so secure in it. I won’t bother you, you won’t bother me, and worse case scenario only needs to be our kids aren’t sharing together at the picnic. It could all be that simple.
In terms of The Man… I disagree, but if your point is that most people out there do mean well enough, I agree. Well enough is not always good enough, unfortunately.
And pray tell, why is it healthier to push a baby out of your vajay on the living room floor versus in a hospital with competent staff?
People idealize the Rape By The Man and harp on how they were violated, but really, of all my friends in various stages of crunchy, not one has had some wackadoodle experience. I know, just anecdote and all, but one has to wonder if what we’re seeing here is mass hysteria or something along those lines (I add my own psychoanalysis in here since apparently that is what we do on this blog).
Well, when you call it a vajay, I know it’s going to be kind of tricky explaining to you something that involves respect, space, and has something sacred to it. We haven’t even breached the fuckedupedness of the biology, either.
Also, in my attempts to explain safety differences, I don’t think I’m going to say anything you haven’t let go in one ear and out the other before, so I’ll spare us both the time and energy (mine would be wasted). I know that if you’re sincere in figuring out why we’re all so convinced of these “myths”, you’ll go and read some of the literature we’ve been reading in an attempts to “get it”. Until then, I think you don’t truly care or want to know. That’s fine, but you also shouldn’t mock or call false that which you do not understand, and make no attempts to understand.
If you haven’t heard any stories, I think you are giving off the vibe. You know, the vibe of “I’m going to be laughing at you on the inside”. Maybe no one wants to open up to you about their “vajay” because they don’t want you to think they’re a “wackadoodle”. I however have many sane and conventional women friends — including some who think I’m extreme — and they’ve felt comfortable enough around me to open up and tell me the things that happened to them which hurt them. They know I’ll listen and be a sympathetic ear.
It’s all about compassion and respect.
I’ve never had a single VE or a single c/s but I think I still love my 4 reasonably OK. Most of the time. Well, when they’re asleep. I’m envious of you though, that your choice is so easily accessible, approved of and paid for. It does not seem fair that you can get what you want so easily, and with pats on the back from the people who make the moolah out of it, while meanwhile my chosen approach is marginalised, demonised, not funded, not supported, not approved of, slagged to death by the Fed Uppers of etc and it also guarantees some fat cats don’t get paid. Your choice, my choice – both should be equally accessible for all women.
Fuckin’ A. Well put.
Geesus…. what a low blow ELisabeth, I can’t hardly believe my eyes…. How can you look at yourself in a mirror……?
Sorely disappointed!
Not sure which thing you are referring to, but I’m flattered that you are disappointed. It means in some way, you expected more from me.
In any case, whether I’m blunt or brash or not, I assure you that everything I say and do is out of compassion. If this is about Marlo, real friends wouldn’t stand back and watch her piss her life away on hate and misconceptions. I’m offering a hand to her that no one else extends, knowing full well she’ll probably just ignore or attack. It’s love.
You are right, I was expecting more from you… I wasnt expecting you would blame a mom from failing at NCB…
I was deep into NCB before I even got pregnant, I read all the books, witnessed HB ect… but most of all I believed down in my bone than childbirth was normal, that it didnt have to hurt ( my mom had 5 NCB and never mention anything more than strong disconfort). It never occured to me that my labors would be anything else than pure empowerment and love. After my first I thought…hum I must have done something wrong…it hurt like hell it wasnt the peacefull birth I envisioned, I thought it must have been just bad luck…. so the second time I was even more devoted and prepared to have what I thought was nature intended … then I realized that it was mostly up to luck… some women are lucky ( like my mom) some arent, and I think It is so very wrong to tell the ones who arent that if it didnt happen like they planned it is because they didnt believe hard enough, or didnt surrender enough…or didnt research enough!!
But what you beautiful ladies are failing to realize is that I am/was in the same boat as you. This is why we should be able to relate. I had “failed” too. I was “doing it wrong” too. And you’re right– sometimes that’s through no fault of your own. Sometimes some women are just “luckier” than others. I’m with you there.
In a case like Marlo’s, which sounds very different from your own, it wasn’t truly something she believed in or was devoted to. She kind of meandered into it, and then called foul when the shit hit the fan.
So, instead of her blaming everybody even loosely associated with natural birth, I am encouraging her to examine the fact that she did NOT have the best set up for this to begin with, and maybe that was more to blame than anything else. I mean, these things CAN be blame free. Just as some women are just lucky, some women are just UNlucky… why does a hate-filled blame have to follow? Unless blaming all these other things and people makes her happier… but I don’t think it does.
I think I love you! For saying things that I think, but am prohibited from saying in public! UGH!!!
For the life of me, I don’t understand what all the fuss is about NCB. If it doesn’t work for you, don’t do it. You and I fall on different sides of UC, but we don’t call each other names or insult each other. I truly believe in midwifery care and I believe you have your reasons for not believing in it. Here’s the thing….I think that as a woman and a mother, you are legitimately looking for the best for you and your kids.
I know that there are judgemental, mean-spirited NCBer’s out there, just like there are racists…but just because some are doesn’t mean that all ideas of NCB are inherently bad. If they don’t work for you, then don’t use them….don’t bash a blog that you only read so you could pick a fight and for pete’s sake, quit sayitng that “when you….., then I’ll consider what you have to say” No you won’t.
Again, UGH!!!! and you ROCK!
Where to start. Ok, first, here.
“Anne Coffee (09:21:09) :
AMEN!!! You couldn’t have said that better!”
In response to kavita’s plea that if you don’t WANT an unqualified birth provider, don’t hire one. In other words, what you’re saying is, Anne Coffee, is that if someone has a preventable complication because she hired you, that’s HER fault because she shouldn’t have hired you? Absolutely disgusting, though thoroughly enlightening. Some midwives’ lack of professionalism and unwillingness to shoulder responsibility for their actions is absolutely chilling, and is not something normal women would choose for themselves and their babies if they weren’t being kept from the truth by misinformation from NCB zealots.
There is no such thing as an “anti-NCB” movement. What there IS is a movement of women who are sick to death of this nonsensical crap many (but certainly not all) NCB advocates claim. Such as you need natural oxytocin to bond with your baby. Perhaps it is an important FRACTION of what goes into bonding, but it by no means is the ONLY thing and to suggest otherwise is HIGHLY insulting. It completely negates the experience of adoptive parents, mothers who give birth by c-section, and even fathers. In order to know the effects of a HORMONE on the body as well as the effects of a synthetic (though chemically identical) hormone, I would like to hear from an endocrinologist.
Lastly, I agree with the assessment given by Marlo about the fact that Michel Odent is a paternalistic, sexist, clueless extremist, who doesn’t deserve the respect and attention he is given. His theories are incorrect, and furthermore, they are not relevant. Do you really expect anyone to believe that pitocin does anything to harm the bonding between mother and baby? How DO you account for bonding in other situations (i.e. adoption, etc)? Who are you to tell mothers who’ve had pitocin that their bonding isn’t right, their experiences are inferior in any way? I hope your readers are smart enough to realize that bonding is an incredibly complex process that is being dumbed down for them so you can illustrate your preconceived ideas about the ‘evils’ of modern maternity care.
Who are you Elizabeth? Seriously, you are the most condescending person I have ever read a post from. You really need to examine what your stake is in the births of other women and what their experiences mean to them.
Another case of hearing what you want to hear. Bonding is complex. I am not saying, and Odent is not saying, that Oxytocin in labor is a MUST for bonding, nor that Pitocin is an automatic killer of bonding. Everyone just gets themselves all in a tizzy over this concept without fully grasping that while important, this is not the only factor. Why so threatened? What about all the studies that show Oxytocin is produced by seeing the face of your children? Obviously there’s more than one way to bond. My Oxytocin was inhibited by my first two births, and I love my children to death– yet people in your camp are circulating that I don’t love my first two kids. Well, that’s on you, and it’s false, and got people feeling all sorry for my kids on something that is make believe. So if I can tell you that I have bonded with MY kids without the blissful birth, why so mad? Because we want to take what we feel is the best approach to birth for a better experience for us and our babies? Big deal. Let us. It isn’t hurting you. What’s at stake, for you?
Marlo has no idea what she’s talking about regarding Odent, and neither do you. You’re both simple people who listen to anything Dr. Amy says without giving anyone else a chance or benefit of the doubt.
Who am I to tell… yada yada yada? Who are you to tell women that their experiences with oxytocin versus pitocin were fictional? Never once have I told a woman she couldn’t bond due to Pitocin, yet you all repeatedly state absurd falsehoods, like Odent being a lying misogynist with no proof of his “theories”. Millions of women and animals are the proof.
So you want to know who I am? I’m a woman who went on the internet looking for information and ended up running into a group of heartless harpies who live and breathe for a war over natural birth, of all things. I’m a woman who wrote a book about her birth stories and have people ask her incredulously what gives her the right. The right! The right to talk!? You know who I am?
I’m the wrong woman to have fucked with. That’s who I am.
And I’m only condescending because I’m smart, I have conviction, and I don’t take shit from little kiddies who think they can bully me like they have all the others. Nope, not this one. If you want to really get to know me, keep talking to me. But for real this time. Not as a minion or a hot-head. As a woman, to another woman, all cards on the table, all due respect given. No one acting all threatened by the other’s birth or lifestyle. Differing beliefs and strong opinions may divide us, but it doesn’t have to be the battle it’s become. This is so beyond silly. The lack of tolerance, compassion, understanding… it’s thick. I’m gonna either chop it up into pieces or expose it, but I will not stand by and condone it.
I couldn’t care any less about your birth. I don’t know a thing about the births of your children, and would NEVER in my wildest dreams pretend to know what chemically went on in your body during them. Your opinions on Odent are just that – opinions. Just like mine is just an opinion on him. Marlo isn’t any more “wrong” about him than you are – I just agree with her viewpoint and I let you know why.
“I am not saying, and Odent is not saying, that Oxytocin in labor is a MUST for bonding, nor that Pitocin is an automatic killer of bonding.”
What exactly is your point then? Has anyone disputed that oxytocin is a factor in bonding? Now you’re saying it’s not the only factor? Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all evening?
“And I’m only condescending because I’m smart, I have conviction, and I don’t take shit from little kiddies who think they can bully me like they have all the others.” This can just stand for itself. Who bullied you? Where can we see an example of this? Please clarify.
“Who are you to tell women that their experiences with oxytocin versus pitocin were fictional?”
OK, where do you get this? I can swear on the lives of my children that I have never stated, or even though to state that “your experiences with oxytocin vs. pitocin are fictional” If you find an instance that anyone here has said this (or said anything that was supposed to MEAN this), I will personally eat my computer.
“I’m the wrong woman to have fucked with. That’s who I am.”
You may want to have those delsions of grandeur looked at, no offense. You wrote and self-published a book of your opinions, from what I understand. That’s a nice accomplishment, but it doesn’t make you an expert. I’m kind of confused as to what you’re really trying to say in the first place.
“I couldn’t care any less about your birth. ” Ruh roh! Well, then, it seems we are at an impasse! Compassion AND communication are brokedz.
“Has anyone disputed that oxytocin is a factor in bonding?” Yeah. What brought you here? Amy’s blog? Go back and re-read it.
“Who bullied you? Where can we see an example of this? Please clarify. ” Okay. If you honestly have no idea, and you’re not just toying with me, you need to go check on the history of “EvilE” with your group. Go find out how I came to be. Monsters aren’t born, they’re made. I’m not going to run down some infinite list of grievances here, and I think you know plenty of your groups hijinks to understand just what I mean.
“If you find an instance that anyone here has said this (or said anything that was supposed to MEAN this), I will personally eat my computer. ”
I bet you will! But seriously, go back and read Amy’s blog, and the trillion comments that followed.
When I said I wasn’t the one to fuck with, I only meant I would not take this lying down. I’m not your sweetie pie turn the other cheek natural birther. I take a punch, you better expect to receive one in return. That’s all. As far as my book goes, which is really not relevant to anything other than you trying to bring up and use as some kind of put down… it’s not a book of opinions, it’s a book of experiences. Kind of like the stories of our beloved trolls, except with more accountability and less fiction.
No, I am saying that I have the right to chose what/who I want attending my birth and where I want to birth….the exact same way that you have that right. I don’t call moms that choose every intervention in the book out for making, what I believe to be, poor choices. I assume that they, like me, are choosing what they truly consider to be the best for them and their babies. I am not a zealot of any kind. I fully realize that NCB isn’t for everyone, but there is a LOT of fear mongering and misinformation out there on both sides. There is definitely a time and place for pitocin, epidurals, and c-sections…but not to be routinely applied to EVERY woman.
As for your opinion of Elizabeth…YOU came to HER blog…it’s kinda like the midwife assessment…if you don’t like it, don’t partake in it.
“Who are you to tell mothers who’ve had pitocin that their bonding isn’t right, their experiences are inferior in any way?”
What if the science does show that body-produced oxytocin has a role in bonding? Do you feel that information shouldn’t be provided because it implies that the experience of some is “inferior”? If so, that is nuts. Let’s just keep everyone in the dark so that no one feels bad… Really?
I didn’t stop with the pop NCB books. I went and looked at medical abstracts, I read articles in science journals. I could care less what anyone thinks of me, what their theories and assumptions and biases are; I’m likewise unconcerned with protecting my own ego. My concern is my family. I’m always interested in doing better, for my sake and theirs. When I first came across the information about oxytocin’s effect on the brain and that oxytocin introduced by external sources does not cross the blood-brain barrier, I didn’t think “Oh, those evil NCB-fanatics are just trying to make me feel bad!” I thought, huh, that is interesting, that makes sense, and it would account for my experiences. I’m going to take that piece [and yes, it is just a piece] of the puzzle and do something with it.”
It made an enormous difference to me and my family. Don’t get me wrong, I would die for any of my children and I have worked hard to establish deep, bonded relationships with all of them. But force of will and good intentions can only take you so far, so my bonding with each of them (and with other people) *has* been different depending on circumstances. Less supportive circumstances = a harder time, and more risk of dysfunction. Chemicals, like it or not, have an effect on how people feel and how they behave. I don’t see that as threatening and offensive, I see that as good information to have, so that if circumstances allow, I can make decisions that optimize my situation.
If circumstances don’t allow, I’m not going to beat myself up about it, I’m going to do the best I can with what I have to work with. But going from there to being angry at people spreading this information? Going from that to asserting that the science couldn’t possibly be true? I don’t get it.
Wasn’t this post about hormones and such, and E you’ve taken to bashing a mom. Sorta of confused how that happened.
She isn’t pissing away her life on hate, or misconceptions. We all agree that not all midwives are awful. But, like Darby commenting on your blog there are some awful midwives out there who do horrific things. Those are the people that Marlo and her friends have issues with.
Now that we have all said our piece how’s about getting back on track.
apparently it isnt about the hormones at all, but appears to be a personal dispute… what about talking about this mom’s birth in a private way instead of bashing her for the word to see.
I find it curious that respect and privacy are a one-way street.
Besides, if you come here to my blog, and make it about you, I will step up to that challenge. Not to be a bitch mind you… but because the topic has been opened for conversation, and we should get to the bottom of this and understand each other.
That’s rich. When all else fails, play the “I’m mediating bad behavior” card. Okay, I’ll bite, even though this IS my blog and people came here with the intention of picking a fight with me.
1. No bashing, just listening to her BS and responding accordingly. Fair is fair. 2. You may be confused, but you’re not confused at all how this happened. In fact, you were all counting on it. 3. Regarding Darby… how do you know? I mean that in earnest. Allow me to just play devil’s advocate for one moment here. How do you know just who she is or just what she is guilty of? I suppose it’s because Margarita is your friend.
This next thing has nothing to do with Margarita in particular, but everything to do with everyone: has it ever occurred to you once, before joining in the finger pointing of anyone, that anyone at any time may have been lying? I’m not saying this is true for you or anyone else. I’m just saying… before you name call, and finger point, and blast people… have you considered the what-ifs?
Or did you just jump right in on the bandwagon to gang up?
I didn’t come here to argue, just to say that I have no reason to lie about the details of my home birth or the reckless actions of the midwives involved. I’ve spoken publicly about what has happened because I don’t want the same thing to happen to someone else.
Word!!!
I am marlo’s friend and I respect what she trying to do, how she has overcome her own personal hell and use those experiences to effect change in a system that sorely needs change. I do not believe anyone who tries to make the world just a little more safe for babies is pissing their life away. You dedicated an entire blog post to her, I’d say she’s having an impact.
I am MY friend (haha… sad.), and what I am trying to do is make the world safer for mothers and babies (that’s whether you agree with me or not). However, Marlo and I have very different tactics in how we achieve this. I look around on birth topics and get sucked into the black hole that is your Dr. Amy group, and I see spite. I don’t see actual, enviable change, or peace, or love. I see bashing and meanness. Now, factor out your particular group, and I’m nothing BUT love. I’m all peace and sweetness until I have to “fight” my way out of trollage. Other than that, other women thank me, and talk to me, and we help and encourage each other. And my knowing you was forced on me. It’s not exactly fair, but I’m not going to back down and pretend you don’t exist. No, I will meet this challenge head-on. I WILL address you.
I do occasionally step to this group and call you out. The group uses their stories as a means to try to further their message, but they don’t appreciate their own stories being remarked upon. For this, I hear no end of how cruel *I* am. Well, these are very personal details, ladies… it doesn’t mean you’re right, and if you bring up your own story and I start asking questions and thinking something is amiss, don’t get mad at me for that. Not after how you go after other people. That takes a lot of nerve.
And I “dedicated” this to her… hmm… Well, she’s a good symbol of your group in many ways, and she came to my blog demanding answers and trying to feebly poke holes in things she did not understand. Her request inspired me. Myself and many other intelligent people showed her she was wrong and she failed to acknowledge this. The impact she is having is that other people are coming out and telling me I go, girl. Well, that’s nice… but I don’t see Marlo helping anyone. I see her as a person with some personal issues that is getting projected onto other people.
She comes here announcing that I’m a liar. I’m a big fat liar for telling my birth stories and discussing how Odent’s work relates to them. Well, that’s called delusion.
Her hate is a waste of her precious energy. Marlo deserves better.
Simply because these women with tragic or near-tragic homebirth stories choose to share them with the rest of the world, to hopefully prevent needless loss and suffering at the hands of grossly incompetent midwives, does not make them liars. It must be very scary to see so many stories of loss at homebirth. Not only what is shared on here, but also what happened in Virginia (breech deaths), Oregon, Australia, etc etc. Incompetent midwives leave a trail of death and tragedy in their wake.
I find it sad, how you will “poke holes” in other womens loss/near loss experiences and minimize those experiences, try to pass blame on to mother or just outright call them liars because it does not fit into some idealized foo foo natural experience.
That is bull. I think at some deep down innate level, you realize this but it is too painful for you to admit.
The problem with homebirth loss moms is that their stories are made to be so untouchable. They bring them up but yet it’s not REALLY up for discussion. It’s a tool being used to evoke an emotion, the emotion they want you to feel, and nothing more. That’s manipulation. Because– only an asshole would challenge these women, and ask them questions, right? Well, I really didn’t want to be that asshole. Trust me. I know how sensitive this topic is. However, they are pointing fingers and whenever that happens, people get to ask questions. Sorry. It’s just the nature of the beast. You aren’t automatically right about everything just because you’ve experienced a loss.
Now, just your comment there, about incompetent midwives leaving dead babies in their wake. This is precisely what I mean. Can you account for all those deaths? Were you there? Maybe you were the coroner over all of them. One of them? Any of them? Do you know how many were or were not preventable deaths, or what the actual cause was? Do you know if the mother herself made choices that could have resulted in a different outcome? No? Now, it’s not all about blame the mom. I’ve been saying that from day one, but no one hears that part. But what you DON’T get is– it is NOT automatically blame the midwife, either.
You see a dead baby, and if a midwife is involved, it’s no question. You automatically know who to blame. Now, as messed up as I am inside about the presence of midwives, I recognize the ridiculousness, the mob mentality of this witch hunt.
So, it’s a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. Be the “bad guy”, I mean. What if… and this of course is PURELY hypothetical… loss turned someone into a raving lunatic nutcase monster. The rage and grief was so intense, that it actually damaged one’s thought process. What if? And what if they were so over-sympathized with to the point that they could do no wrong, shit went uncorrected, and every time they lashed out they were “right!” and every time they placed blame on people for their pains, regardless of actuality, they were “right!” and everyone else had no right to speak on it, question it, etc…. could only shut up? Do you think something like that has ever or could ever exist, particularly among groups of friends with similar histories and pain?
Let’s throw that back at ya’. I bet you were at those home births that went tragically wrong and therefore can pick apart the sad outcomes.
Oh wait.
You know as well as I do that bad midwives are not prosecuted. You surely have seen the news lately, in the US and even Australia. Oregon is a clap trap of shitty outcomes, for example.
We don’t HAVE to pick apart, but if you make the choice to execute blame, everything as a whole comes under scrutiny. That’s just natural.
We are hearing about midwives and death because it is sensational, due to our society trusting medical doctors above homebirth, which is considered loopy and weird.
Not only that, but doctors have money and pull to make things *disappear*.
Not only that, but loss mothers tend to not automatically blame doctors in the same way they blame midwives as a knee jerk reaction. If you automatically assume it’s for lack of training or license, I think that illustrates what our perceptions/preconceived notions are and how our biases warp us. If we jump to that conclusion on the first bad sign, it shows us that we never really took these people seriously to begin with, and if so, had no business trusting them with our births.
I’m just saying that not every death has a killer. We need to think about that.
There are incompetent care providers of all kinds. I’ve run into plenty who are licensed and part of the medical system. Babies die and are injured in hospitals due to iatrogenic causes. Iatrogenic causes of death and injury in general are a huge problem. Medical professionals really do have a bubble of protection around them; it’s rare that they get called out and put on public trial because the general belief is that they are well-educated and competent and have lots of machines and are therefore infallible. “They did everything they could!” I can’t tell you how many people I know who have received substandard care and had serious damage done to them, and they have no recourse because the doctor’s defense is always that in his sincere educated opinion it needed to be done, and after all you do sign that consent form upon entering the hospital. The general public doesn’t have the medical knowledge to question it, and they already have the biased mentality that doctors are god/experts, so a jury is going to be extremely unlikely to award against the doctor. In addition, the victims usually don’t have the money to go through the whole legal process. By contrast, those going after the midwives are primarily funded by the medical establishment. And they have *lots* of money. Of course there are bad midwives, just as there are bad doctors, and neither should be practicing. But it is not at all a level playing field, and this notion that midwives are in general a greater danger is a dangerous myth. This myth serves someone, though. Can’t think of who? Follow the money. Always follow the money.
But 2000 babies die in Australian hospitals every year, and many through iotrogenic causes. My neighbour’s baby had her neck broken during a forceps delivery that didn’t need to happen, it was only because of the cascade of intervention. Another aquaintance’s baby died because they took 90 minutes to intubate her by which time it was too late. Admission to NICU for homebirth babies is a 10th of hospital born babies, The APGARS are better. The rate of perinatal death at homebirths is lower than hospitals. But the homebirth deaths get in the paper, the hospital deaths you can only read about in the PDCU stats. Just because a baby dies in a hospital does not make it less tragic. Another Australian mother just had her healthy twin terminated at 30 wks because they killed the wrong baby, so she lost them both. Another friend lost her uterus and nearly her life after an aggressively managed obstetric birth. Every obstetrician I’ve spoken to has had stories of losses and baby deaths, which has made them question a lot of routine obstetrical practices (these are the good obstetricains). To make out that midwives who lose a baby are “killers” but that’s not the case when obstetricians lose babies is silly. Birth is not 100% guaranteed safe whether you choose the obstetric model or the midwifery model but BOTH models should be equally available and accessible.
So umm yeah oxytocin, rock on. I think the rate of placental retention, prolonged labor *cough* Darby *cough* and post-dates might call bullshit on how wonderful oxytocin is, though. Sure, it can make you feel nice, but finally meeting your baby after 40 long weeks (give or take) feels nice too. It’s not the end-all be-all.
Interesting. I have some questions.
Oxytocin is a hormone, so it’s got to be possible that some women don’t produce it as effectively as others. There are loads of other hormonal imbalances that exist, right? So in those cases, would you advocate that use of pitocin would be called for, to supplement what is missing for those women? And if so, what kind of tests would we be able to do beforehand to determine if any particular woman wasn’t going to make enough (and what is enough?)? And if not, are these women just doomed to not bond with their children properly after birth?
I think the biggest problem that the ladies have with Odent is exemplified with this quote: “It is this hormone flood that enables a woman to fall in love with her newborn and forget the pain of birth.” It sounds an awful lot like he is saying the flood is necessary for a woman to fall in love with her newborn. “Enable” means to make possible, and so it sounds like without oxytocin, Odent believes it’s not possible. Does he think that women who experienced the flood of oxytocin are more bonded to their children than those who didn’t? And if so, how would that be calculated? Is it possible to measure bonding in some way?
These may be questions where the research is too young to be answered.
If, in what I can only imagine must be an extraordinarily, freakishly rare instance, that a woman is totally unable to go into spontaneous labor on her own, I could see how and why intervention could be required.
However, I believe that by the time this would be earnestly discovered, the baby would be in serious need of being delivered ASAP, because I believe in carrying a baby for as long as it is healthy. The moment it is no longer healthy to be carried, and becomes an emergency, a C-section can be performed.
I know this is very black and white, but things aren’t bad until they’re bad.
No one is “doomed” to not bond. We just believe in getting the best possible start in life. IF you are not able to do this in the healthiest way for all, obviously I would in no way advocate feeling guilty or beating yourself up about it. EVERYBODY has to do what they have to do. This is why I talk about forgiveness, healing, and letting go.
If you want to get hung up on words and assign them stricter meaning, that’s all you ladies. From where I’m standing, it looks as though you are just feeling insecure, uptight, or threatened by concepts which you know wouldn’t have applied to you or your labors. Well, big deal! That’s why I keep bringing up me. I had TWO births that didn’t work out in a physiological way, and I am in no way, shape, or form threatened by Odent’s words, and I know damn well that I bonded with MY kids and loved them to death.
So yeah, maybe he DOES think women are more bonded to their kids who choose a natural birth. What *I* think (and maybe he too, but I can’t put words in his mouth) is that it’s all case by case. We’ve all seen shit moms. We could sit here and say that no mom is perfect, but a lot of moms are good, and good for their kids. I notice that a lot of shit moms had very unnatural births. Is there a connection? Possibly, maybe. Or maybe the choices they made in pregnancy and birth were indications of their nature. Another chicken or the egg scenario.
What I DO know is that I have never known a woman who had a true physiological birth to be a shit mom.
What I DO know is that as long as we are doing our best, trying to be good moms, in each and every choice that we make… that’s all that we can do. That’s good enough. Why can’t we honor and accept that? Why do we have to be threatened by science, and deny it? If you’re a good mom, just know you’re a good mom. Nothing would be able to challenge you, not even science. If you’re a good mom, you rise above all factors. Just rest in that and be secure. Feel adequate. This shouldn’t even bother you. If he isn’t talking about you, if this stuff doesn’t apply to you, you don’t even have to defend yourself.
Mary–
i have lots of family who live all around the country. Some of them live near enough that my legs enable me to walk the distance to their homes. Others live a longer distance away, and a car would enable me to visit. Others live even further, and a plane would enable me to see them. In all cases, my legs would MAKE IT POSSIBLE for me to see them, but it would either 1: take too long to be worth the time of transport, or 2: be too physically stressful.
Getting hung up on semantics avoids the actual point of scientific fact — which is that oxytocin IS involved in the bonding process and is released by numerous avenues, and CAN be suppressed by the introduction of synthetic pitocin. There are things mothers can do to naturally release oxytocin, including skin-to-skin contact, breastfeeding as soon as possible — even making out with their spouses. (One of my friends is a doula and once walked in on a client making out with her husband during labor in the hospital room — she dilated from 8 to 10 in 20 minutes, after laboring 15 hours to get to 8!)
The science of oxytocin isn’t questioned when it comes to orgasm or spousal bonding. It’s pretty well-established that even thinking of your partner at the moment of orgasm — even if you’re “going solo” — influences your bond with that person. The only reason it’s so controversial in labor and birth is because people WANT to find reasons to argue against normalcy and nature in birth. Let’s face it… last time I checked (hang on, lemme look in my drawers… yup, still a girl) women LOVE having things to bitch about. We are never happier than when we’re complaining. And I love a good bitchfest as much as the next gal. But really…. there are more important matters over which to get our panties in a knot.
Great analogy! Excellent points, beautifully addressed.
If we are just looking for purpose, whether it’s to bitch or to change the world for the better, there ARE better projects than infiltrating the internet to pick on other people’s births.
Find meaning. Do what moves your heart. I am not your enemy.
I say this with utmost respect for women who have lost their babies —
Elizabeth has ALREADY discussed that issue, at length. The point is not to point fingers at the midwives only, or the mothers only, or the supporting characters (spouses, partners, doulas, family, friends, etc), or the hospital staff when the mother is transferred, or even the OB and medical-birth advocates who make so many women feel they need to choose midwife-managed birth in the first place simply to find a little piece of respect.
The point is to acknowledge that EVERYBODY is equally responsible and innocent. The mother doesn’t need the midwife’s consent to go to the hospital when she knows something isn’t right. When I read many “hurt by homebirth” stories, while I’m saddened and incredibly upset for these fellow mothers, I also see that many of them DON’T trust birth, they DIDN’T trust themselves; they trusted the midwives who don’t live inside the skin and minds of those laboring mothers anymore than an OB does. This isn’t about the “trust birth” crowd being irresponsible, because these women didn’t. It was BECAUSE I trust birth, and trust my instincts, that I chose a hospital birth. I knew something was wrong and I followed it and it saved both our lives.
But what we must also acknowledge is that there are women who trust OBs to the grave, too. And hospital CNMs and family practice docs and witch doctors and who-knows-what. I have a very dear friend who lost her child in a fully-managed hospital birth for no single reason, but a long cascade of medical inaction from the beginning of her pregnancy. (Since there’s an ongoing lawsuit I won’t discuss the details here.) She didn’t trust her instincts and frequently disagreed with me on childbirth philosophy (though we’ve always, and still, respected each other). She trusted her doctor and buried her son.
I don’t blame her for what happened. Neither do I think her doctor is entirely to blame (in a moral, rather than legal sense). Or her husband or family. The fact is that everybody has some responsibility in it (again, morally if not legally). I’d like to think I would have made different decisions, but who can say for sure? I don’t live in her experiences. I only know the choices I’ve made for myself based on what I believe to be true. I also know that every choice I’ve made — from my initial care under a midwife, to my transfer to OB, to my c-section — has involved signing a waiver assuming responsibility for MY choice, truly informed or not, under duress or sound of mind, for better or worse.
And THAT is the crux of the matter. We do the best we can with what we know, and when we know better, we do better. I can’t blame the woman I was who chose a midwife simply because I ended up needing an OB. I can be proud that she made that decision freely, and freely followed her instincts when indications made another choice preferable. I can’t blame the woman my friend was for choosing an OB, or for not choosing to switch practices when things started to go poorly because she believed it would be the same anywhere else. Learning experiences are not always positive — in fact they’re frequently not.
And let’s not forget, too, that babies are not the only victims of birth, at hospital or at home. Considering that mothers who die in, or because of, birth cannot log onto the internet and bitch about the OBs who needlessly exposed them to HAIs so they wouldn’t miss their weekend vacations, it’s fair to say their voices deserve to be heard. Since the US leads the developed world in maternal mortality rates — leaving babies motherless, and often fatherless too — we cannot discount those deaths as morally and statistically important. Neither can we brush aside the issue of responsibility simply because the victim is different.
That was SO right, and so beautifully said, and I hope this gets through where MY words have failed. Thank you!
I can’t help but noticing this little pearl :
“What I DO know is that I have never known a woman who had a true physiological birth to be a shit mom.”
because we all know that shit mom are a product of medical interventions! and never seen before the 20th century….
I am sorry but it is hard not to take this sentence as a “you ll be a good IF you have a true physiological birth”. I think (hope) you don’t mean that , but is tough not to read thru the lines on that one!
Not really. She didn’t say “All the shit mothers I know had medicalized births.” Nor did she say “Only mothers who have medicalized births are shit moms.” She made a subjective (“I have…”), negative statement.
http://www.ehow.com/how-to_4845353_avoid-common-logical-errors.html
lol… WIN.
Mommawrench, are you on my FB page yet?
I knew someone would find a way to misconstrue that first little “pearl”. Let me try to help. *I* have not known any shit moms who experienced true physiological birth. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist, I’m just noting how funny that is. Additionally, who said that the 20th century was the only place to find bad births? Medical intervention is NOT the only thing to fuck with birth physiology, AND it didn’t just originate in the 20th century. It only “took off” then. As most of you love to note, women in varying cultures have been using attendants for a very long time now. And, there is more than one way to ruin a birth.
You guys don’t “get it”. An undisturbed, normal birth is something that very few these days get to experience. Most don’t even know what that means, as you’ve illustrated. If you want Oxytocin to work it’s magic, there are certain conditions that must be met. It goes beyond just the dreaded hospital medical birth.
So anyway, it’s not like I promise that anyone who gets a physiological birth will be an awesome mom… but I am saying that the two seem to accompany each other– a LOT. You don’t need one to have the other. This is a casual observation on my part, but a more serious observation on the parts of others more qualified to make the connections. I don’t really think Oxytocin and bonding and great births are just coincidences, basically.
“I knew someone would find a way to misconstrue that first little “pearl”.”
Then why do you choose to use those words if you know some people will interpret it like that? All I can think is that you are enjoying the drama, it isnt about keeping an open mind, and exchange ideas , but purely make a provocative post to get the hits….. good luck to you! hopefully the blog will do better than the book!
Sincerely, Brun.
Because I can only be responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.
There will always be a million ways for me, or any human, to be misunderstood. Even if I think I am saying something as clear as day, there is always someone somewhere on planet Earth to not “get it”. If you think I can be held responsible for all those reactions, that is highly unreasonable as none of us receive the privilege of being always understood.
And of course, when trying to play the card of “higher ground troll” fails, you’ve resorted to the same tactics as all the rest… accusing me of drama, of looking for hits (I get absolutely NO benefits by this blog getting hits, btw), and seem to reference my book in a negative light. You are no different. You truly belong in their group. On FB today, I’ve noticed you trying to separate yourself from them, because you realize it’s the only way anyone will take you seriously. But, what if you don’t deserve to be taken seriously, or be considered separate? You are just a functioning limb off of the body of the anti-NCB robot.
So, you’ll believe you are separate, or polite, or I’m dramatic, or a failure… It is whatever you want it to be, right? I mean, you get to be the master of your reality. If that’s how you like it… Meanwhile, you’ll keep to the classy blogs you typically enjoy, like Amy or Mama Tao. But I’M the one who likes drama.
No, I couldn’t just be a woman who got tired of bullies. That couldn’t be possible.
Over the weekend I was very priviledged to be able to act as doula for my cousin’s hospital birth. Her labor was VERY slow…18 hours after she began leaking fluid, she was only 4 cm only ctx-ing every 6-10 minutes, baby kinda flat on the monitor. At 20 hours with little progress I suggested Pitocin, that’s right, ME, I suggested it. Why? Because that’s what it is used for. No one, not even the medical team suggested it earlier, because they knew her desire to have as undisturbed birth as possible. But, as she began to develop a temp, baby continued to look flat, no decels, but, no accels either it became clear that something had to change. The first step was to introduce Pitocin.
All this made me think about the “conversation” going on here. I, for one, am not advocating NEVER administrating Pitocin, just using it judisiously in the same way that no one would recommend insulin to a non-diabetic person, but when it becomes clear that something else is going on, then you introduce insulin.
I firmly believe and teach that there is an appropriate time and place for most of the birth interventions….NONE of them should be routinely applied to EVERY mom.
Isn’t that just simple common sense, Anne? ITA: “there is an appropriate time and place for most of the birth interventions….NONE of them should be routinely applied to EVERY mom.” Too right – when obstetric protocols are rigidly applied to every mother and baby, that is when you see iotrogenic harm increasing. Supporting a fair go at a normal birth (for women who desire it) does not mean that we never use, or recommend, judicious use of available technology.
A newspaper article here states: “People with a certain gene trait are more kind and caring than those without it, and strangers can quickly tell the difference. The variation is linked to the body’s receptor gene of oxytocin, sometimes called the “love hormone” because it often msnifests during sex and promotes bonding, empathy and other social behaviours. Scientists at Oregon State University said observers were mostly able to tell which person in test couples had the ‘kindness gene’ and which ones did not, according to the findings in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Yesterday.” (AFP) Interestingly, this snippet omits to mention that childbirth, not “sex” (no mention of romance? cuddling? kissing? just PIV sex? really??) is the life event that provides the largest baptism of oxytocin for both mother and baby that either will ever experience. if that connection were made, it would be no quantum leap to comprehend that providing an environment at birth that promotes the optimal peak flow of birth hormones does not only make childbirth easier and safer, but also provides mother and baby with the maximum amount of oxytocin for their oxytocin receptor genes to benefit from. The link between medicalised birth and interference in birth and the rise in social violence needs scrutiny.
Saoirse, I totally agree, and I do hint at that in my book (In Search of the Perfect Birth). It’s no surprise to me that some of the most violently opposed people to this concept also happen to be some of the most vile, unethical, bullying, and unconscionable antagonists I have happened to come across in my life. Naturally, they would think this whole thing was a “myth”. People who stay bitter and indoors may also say there is nothing special about the warmth of sunlight on your skin and the sensation it gives, and that it providing you Vitamin D is a myth. Everything worth having and experiencing in life cannot be duplicated, manufactured, and sold in a bottle. Complicated chemical processes happen, part of our biological function, and man thinks their technology is God. Technology is there to help and aid us, not to be worshiped as infallible and all powerful. We lose our way. When we start off divorced from ourselves and each other, I can hardly blame them for being so cold.
Sarah is lovely. I enjoyed meeting her so much. She just has a calmness and a radiance about her. And her manner is really gentle. I admired her. She is an excellent and eloquent speaker but there’s no pulpit-pounding. She just unfolds the knowledge so that it’s clear, concise and compelling. Her book, Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering was the first thing I read that really helped me get a grasp of the role of birth hormones and the how & why of how undisturbed birth works. Since then I’ve had 4 homebirths – just like Sarah (although I think one of hers was breech, mine were all cephalic). I also like that her website provides the articles that make up most of the book for free, so anyone who wants to can access the knowledge – she is not all about making money. That stands out to me in our capitalist, profit-driven culture. She is genuinely about empowerment and generously sharing knowledge. She certainly was part of my journey to empowerment. Since then I have had the great privilege of being with hundreds of other mamas during birth (hospital, birth centre and home) and the principals of undisturbed birth have certainly helped me do what I could to optimise the whole experience for my clients.
[…] concerned with guarding her from these awful people – adrenaline always pumping – the oxytocin never flowed. I never made enough milk for her. It wasn’t until all these people faded back […]
Are you Darby Partner, one of the two evil women who killed baby Shahzad? Why have you changed your name? What part did oxytocin play in your decision to hold his mother hostage until his death was inevitable? Have you told Drs Odent and Buckley about your past, and do they approve? Have you suggested they Google Darby Partner?
WHO are you talking to?
You’re obviously ignorant. You’re ignorant because you don’t know even who you are addressing. You’re ignorant because you come here acting like you know anything in spite of this. You’re ignorant because you call someone evil when you don’t know them. You’re ignorant because you accuse someone of killing a baby and kidnapping a laboring woman when you have no idea if that is what happened. You’re ignorant because you are asking about Odent and Buckley to someone who hasn’t mentioned them, as if it were relevant. You’re ignorant because even if they “Google” someone’s name, it obviously doesn’t prove anything. Isn’t that what you may call “Google University”? You got all your information from Google and the internet… so it must be true! Let’s put YOU on a jury… not.
Ignorant, ignorant, ignorant. You know NOTHING. Wrap your head around that.