No, Attachment Parenting Isn’t Some Evil Plot

I saw this reddit-based propaganda piece written by a man (Jesse Singal) on the wicked, wicked ploy of evil people to guilt mothers into using attachment parenting methods in order to keep them locked away in their woman dungeons for all eternity. It is entitled “Is Attachment Parenting a Plot to Force Women Back Into the Home?”– lol. And who would know better than this man, and the infamous Dr. Amy?– otherwise known as “she who shall not be named” in internet mothering communities– because holy shit, if you say her name three times, like Beetlejuice (or Bloody Mary), she appears, along with her flying monkeys of Oz (her devotees), so badly so that modding internet mothering communities is a troll-infested nightmare. Not to digress too far, but let’s face it– Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, and childbirth/motherhood has no shortage of women who are suffering (whether they know it or not) from PTSD and understandable accompanying rage which could be directed any which way by heady narcissists of the internet age. So, I started to respond to the piece and found my words quite lengthy, not at all appropriate for a tweet or even a series of tweets. Which brings us to this post.

(For those who don’t know, “attachment parenting” is just a fancy new way of labeling natural and instinctive mothering and parenting techniques, usually with the gentlest methods. It means picking up a baby when it cries, co-sleeping, breastfeeding, baby-wearing, natural birthing, etc. There is nothing truly new or invented about it. And no two mothers do it exactly alike or even necessarily adhere to all of the components. Mothers often stay at home to fill this role. And make no mistake, language matters; naming these methods using only new buzzwords like “attachment parenting”  without further understanding is a clever psychological reversal that disguises the fact that woman is being separated from that which would have come naturally, to be replaced with reliance on “expert advice” to the contrary, stemming ultimately from patriarchal institutions. Creating doubt in a woman’s self and instincts is often packaged and sold to us as “equality”, and any feminist can attest to.)

Before I get into that, I just want to say that this is going to be just another case of damned if you do, damned if you don’t, for women. No matter what women choose, it will be vilified, in case any of you needed reminding. Nothing is woman enough or feminist enough, unless it comes from a man or his institution, of course (and then it’s job well done). And so, pitting woman against woman is a divide and conquer strategy from those who want women to forget how amazing and strong and worthy they are of love and also basic human rights, and who truly do have ultimate mothering and parenting authority in the natural world. It’s a way of keeping us perpetually down. Now on with my response.

Dr. T is a horrible person who rallies angry, traumatized women together to attack and troll women who do things differently and those who have lost children. There have been numerous private groups of hers and her followers, some of which you were actually forced to show your ID in order to be accepted (I am not joking), so the worst of the worst is not visible to the general public. The scathing violent tendencies, the plotting to destroy lives, etc. However, what IS published is typically bad enough. (Yes It Is Your Fault That Your Baby Died At Your Homebirth. — and she has the nerve to pontificate on “social control of a woman”?) And I know about these deeds because I was one of the tormented (my crime: planning an unassisted birth and talking about the subject of freebirth publicly with other women). My friends were other targets of hers (some of these include mothers of stillborn children. I can think of at least 4 of these women off the top of my head– I know them in part because our shared antagonism by this woman brought us together over the years). She also believes single mothers, lesbians, and mothers who leave an abusive spouse are selfish.

 

Will the Real Dr. Amy Please Stand Up?

And attachment parenting is just parenting. It’s just natural, instinctive parenting. There is no plot. It’s just what happens when mothers prioritize mothering over other forms of modern existence, as much as is in their comfort level. Many are religious and traditional but many are feminist and radical.

If Dr. T is so keen on staying in the work force, why did she spend all that effort to go to medical school and barely practice herself as a doctor only to become a stay at home mom to her own children? Then she took up internet doctoring and was charging people for answers, and is now writing books demonizing women who choose natural mothering choices, despite the fact that she did barely practice and is out of practice in her profession by at least two decades?

How feminist is Dr. Tuteur?
She is using a lot of feminist-seeming arguments about women in the work force and the societal guilting of women in motherhood, but she laughs at phrases like ‘birth rape’, insists all Cesareans are good if not all completely necessary, and flat out denies the abuses women endure under current obstetric rule in childbirth today. In her views of modern medicine and specifically obstetrics, patriarchy is suspiciously absent. That women seemed traumatized by their hospital births seems to be something Amy is really confused about the existence of, having no comprehension of the connection between serious bodily injury, detachment from baby and hormonal flow, and psychological harm to the mother or child. Her two-dimensional understanding of childbirth sounds very masculine: ‘you got a healthy baby, and that’s all that matters, so what are you whining about, selfish women?’ In her book, Push Back: Guilt in the Age of Natural Parenting, one of her many stabs at midwives indicates that they are “merely replacing the patriarchy with the matriarchy”, outing herself as not actually very feminist, at all.

She also doesn’t believe in intuition or any concept of “women’s wisdom”, and thinks those are essentially myths. To my mind, this is woman-hating. In her world, the only true thing is listening to your doctor. And you’re only smart and worthy of being left alone if you do exactly what he or she says. Amy doesn’t see her own hypocrisy and instead decides it’s the open breastfeeders (for example) who sing the virtue of the practice who are doing the bad deeds, because these actions somehow shame other mothers who don’t breastfeed and this makes them feel bad. For all the bashing of the romanticization of primitive/natural living/parenting, her allegiance seems to be to technology as this infallible lifesaving thing, despite the fact that it frequently stands in direct opposition to the natural world and is in fact responsible for numerous atrocities, and void of the recognition that the rape of the natural world and of women and mothers is more aggressive and harmful than *women who make other women feelz bad by doing*. Most radical feminists will understand me when I say that “biophobia” is deeply patriarchal.

I’ve been dealing with her for years after being targeted, and from knowing her story and watching her strategize, I am aware that she projects her bitterness and regrets onto others to make a name for herself and feel better about her own choices, both professionally and personally, as a former doctor and as a mother. She is relentless and vicious. She has Google alerts plus voluntary scouts seeking out baby loss stories and she goes at mothers immediately fresh in grief with her minions, armchair diagnosing whether or not they “killed” their babies when tragedy strikes. She’s like Westboro Baptist for natural parenting, birth, and baby loss. ( <— this mother is a radical feminist btw. Imagine losing a baby and having some internet psycho “doctor” sic her hundreds or thousands of rabid fans after you to harass you and potentially dox or harm you and your family? All because she disagreed with how you gave birth, how you parent, and because she crowned herself the long distance expert in your child’s cause of death?) She and others have believed women like me shouldn’t be published, don’t have a right to voice our opinions or stories… I think we’ve all seen how no-platforming affects our freedoms as women. And when they can’t get women like me censored, they come en masse to try to hurt us in the reviews.

If I try to separate myself from what I know are her motives and try to focus just on the argument, I could see how aspects of attachment parenting CAN be used as a method of guilting women into staying at home.

That said, these parenting methods are not a fad, they are (many of them) primal and predate our modern conventions and senses of what now constitutes “normal”.

I’m tired of her representing Dick-Read as a eugenicist, too. I’ve READ Childbirth Without Fear, has she? I doubt Jesse Singal has read it either while he allows her to defame the author, not that Singal cares or has any reason to care, has any close personal connection to its contents or why it matters. It’s a great book and has helped generations of women have painless natural childbirth, liberating them from sadistic medical cycles that were stopping women from even wanting children (like after I had my 2nd born). Grantly Dick-Read’s critique is on civilization. White “civilized” women have been convinced they are not animals, which is a lie which has caused them undue torment in childbirth. Other “less civilized” women were having more ease. The man toured the globe. He was a doctor who reported what he witnessed. If anything, it is more damning of racism and classism and Western civilization. But Amy will twist that to whatever suits her warped agenda.

Grantly Dick-Read admired women and spoke highly of them and wanted to see them freed from pain. His reverence was so poetic it brought tears to my eyes on repeated occasions. Amy speaks ill of women constantly and seems to find glee is personally causing them pain. Their contributions to the world in terms of pain and suffering and disdain versus liberation and honoring is starkly felt. Hearing their words is the difference between love and hate.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave…
I hesitate to embrace the message of Singal’s piece. Because even without the people Amy is trying to shit talk (which is like, 90% of her notoriety– gaining fame by attempting to defame others including some blatant lying on her part), these methods of parenting are instinctive and time honored. If modern women choose otherwise, fine. But Amy cares nothing for you, what she does is preys upon women’s feelings of pain, “mommy wars”, having felt guilted, inadequacy, the sense of being pit against each other unjustly, and uses it to her own personal advantage. She’s a really disturbed individual with more issues than Time, so taking anything she says seriously is a folly you choose at your own risk, and it’s anything but woman-loving. She doesn’t have scruples, she has personally invested grudges to legitimize the back story of her life to herself, the likes of which in its fullness may be a nut we never truly crack.

If only men and those who cater to male rule would stop interfering and let women do their work, in peace.

Medicine Vs. Midwifery: Divide & Conquer

The stage:  North Carolina.

The background: Women have just lost the opportunity to birth legally with midwife attendants at home.

The scene:  One midwife, CNM Deb O’Connell, shuts her doors. It’s a sad day for women of her state, she laments. With no doctor to back her practice, she is moving on. But what you may not know is that Deb did this to herself.

Deb is associated with an infamous retired OB who spends her days blogging about how stupid homebirth is. Deb is a member of a group that proudly claims they are fed up with natural birth. And Deb chased down loss mother Michelle on my page just to dig into her about her own homebirth loss, and her peaceful attitude toward it, because it really irked the hell out of her clique friends.

Before I go any further, this is not a post to pick on Deb. I’ve seen that happen for others already at the hands of Deb and her friends, and I think it’s ugly and it sucks. I certainly don’t want to be mean or unfair, but I also think it’s something I should talk about, so I’ll try to do it as civilly as I can. If you want to understand the political climate of birth today, you have to discuss the players, who they align with, and what they profess to believe. I’ll be accused of picking on her, or delivering a low blow, but I promise I will be kinder than I’ve seen them extend to others. Unfortunately, the group I mention often lays mercilessly into anyone they disagree with, but the moment a single one of their own comes under scrutiny or criticism, suddenly they become the morality police. All things considered, I assure you this is not about retribution. I’m examining something I find peculiar and shedding light on what is really going on here. That’s my intent.

I understand that the internet gives most of us a disconnect from who we speak to plus an extra set of balls, but care should be exercised with our words, particularly by professionals who are supposed to have sensitivity and compassion. I think sometimes tone is misunderstood, too. Let me apologize in advance, in case I misunderstood anyone’s words or intent, and I welcome the opportunity to be corrected.

North Carolina recently lost a number of babies during homebirths, I understand. This caused alarm and attentiveness in the medical community. Although, they were itching for a reason; the Board of Medicine was reportedly seeking reports of homebirth horror stories. Just days before her own birth, Michelle’s midwife dismissed herself from Michelle’s care, resulting in a horrifying birth— repeat C-section hospital experience she felt forced to endure.

Michelle has had both CNMs and CPMs. These are two classifications of midwifery. The first requires one to have nurse training first. It is arguably more “educated”. Some consider it only more medicalized, and thus less desirable. The latter requires independent midwifery training, typically lasting several years. Different states vary in their requirements for that credential, and some people consider the credential a joke. Others are thankful for the option to use someone who is more naturalistic, holistic, and not a “medwife”. To each her own. Due diligence, follow your instinct, and all that jazz.

Now this is the part where I remind you that I am not even a “fan” of midwives. Why? Read my book and you’ll see why. My most horrific birth was under the care of homebirth midwives. But I’ll tell you what I am a fan of:  choice. Just because I want every woman to be spared of the horror that I felt in my second birth does NOT give me the right to crusade against removing a woman’s right to birth with a midwife– ANY classification of midwife– if she so chooses.  I have the right to tell my story, to have a Facebook page and a book explaining my point of view, and let women make their own choices from there. What you do with that is up to you. Either I move you or I don’t. Either you believe me or you don’t. I’d be taking it too far and wasting my time if I picketed against midwives or hospitals. So, although I’m not promoting midwife use at all (CNM, CPM, at home, or in hospital), I sure find myself defending them all the damn time against staunch anti- groups.

You could say the removal of legal homebirth midwifery was a “win” for me, the UC “evangelist”. More appropriate would be to say it’s a win for the infamous retired OB. Although neither one of us promotes the use of homebirth midwives, one main difference between she and I is that I strongly feel that loss of choice and options is not the way to keep people safe. The best way to keep people safe is to provide them as many safe and healthy and legal options as possible, try to put the information out there, hope they educate themselves, and let them make their own choices. Neither Amy nor I can make anyone feel what we feel. And it is about feeling, not fact. When you break things down enough, the line between fact and opinion becomes really blurry (after all), doesn’t it? Forcing anyone into anything is more likely to lead to true recklessness and rebellion, panic, illegal and less safe means, etc. Eradicating any form of midwifery then is, in my opinion, foolish.

So, Deb and Amy and all their closest internet friends storm the web talking about the dangers of homebirth, how natural birth ain’t all that, and make fun of people who are “anti-science” (read: not automatically faithful of and loyal to pharmacy, technology, and medicine— in other words, questioners), yet now there is an upset because Deb in particular is forced to close her doors. After I’ve seen the way she has treated women, I would think this is actually a positive that she is no longer in a position to serve. To me, the utter lack of respect I have seen from those with the title of midwife, doula, nurse, grief mentor, or doctor leaves me in indignant disbelief.  Those people don’t need to be “serving” women, if that’s what you call serving. But to not put 2 and 2 together and figure out that one’s own attitude led to one’s own downfall is beyond me!

A lot of generalities and assumptions are flying around, and they are really only divisive. CPMs are shitty. Homebirth is stupid and reckless. Michelle’s loss was preventable. CNMs are good. I think it’s obvious after seeing what happened in North Carolina that when you sweepingly say that one type or one practice is unsafe, you’re condemning a hell of a lot of people you know nothing about. Stillbirths happen, tragic births happen, but we already know that. It doesn’t change the fact that people deserve the right to choose their birth, anyway. It doesn’t matter if you agree or not. Deb is a CNM and doesn’t approve of CPMs from a professional or ideological standpoint. That’s fine, she’s entitled to that, and I don’t care about that. Amy believes that all homebirth is stupid and reckless. She’s entitled to that, and I don’t care about that. Forcing your beliefs, your ideology, on others is what I care about. What I care about is the intense rallying I keep seeing against either homebirth, natural birth, or CPM birth. When you rally your support behind people who are so against the removal of a choice, do not be so surprised when your own goes, too. When you play with fire, expect to be burned. Duh!

To Deb O’Connell, formerly of Carrboro Midwifery, she probably feels that the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. Her buddy Amy, who thinks homebirth is for morons, I can only assume feels North Carolina finally got something right. Then again, she also feels that gays are selfish to parent and that women should stay with men who beat them (for the children!) or they are selfish, so I don’t know why anyone puts much stock in her “professional” 1990s OB opinion. It’s slanted, anti-woman, and frankly, passé.

Let me let you in on a little secret… most normal, average women choosing a midwife have no real preference or concern over which letters follow their names. I know I didn’t even know the difference when I first started with midwives. What I cared about was that I could tell they were professional, compassionate, and a good fit for my family. I had to think they deserved my trust and respect, and a lot of that is instinctive (believing whether or not you can count on someone). I can tell right away if someone is unprofessional or lacking education. It’s part of the reason I dumped a new set of midwives on pregnancy #3 (ironically, they were CNMs). It doesn’t matter whether I was right or wrong to choose the midwives I did (that’s on MY head, anyway), because how I felt about my births has nothing to do with their midwife classification. It was about me, Elizabeth, the person, and who they were as people. Letters after a name cannot tell you whether someone is competent, caring, or respectful. That can only be ascertained on an individual basis. Michelle realized that, too, about her loss, and she has been hounded about it ever since (by this group).

So, most natural birthers really do not worry nor care what classification their caregiver falls under. Both credentials come with immersing education. Yet, a war is being manufactured pitting CPM against CNM. The real war is big medicine versus midwifery. A common tactic in any war is divide and conquer. You pit them against one another and let them do the work of unraveling themselves. “A house divided against itself will fall.” And so, now when the inevitable happens– a loss of all types of (legal) homebirth midwifery– why were any involved foolish enough to believe they were exempt from the chopping block? Didn’t they recognize that this was the goal all along? I argue that midwives are being played like pawns, and this is the result. They’ve had to struggle so long to be viewed as professionals in their own right, and now their weakness is being used against them. It’s pitiful.

Know your real enemy, because if you aren’t careful, next time it could be you losing your rights. So, North Carolina, I am so terribly sorry for your removal of legal choice. I know that in some regards, you were done a favor… someone(s) who was misrepresenting herself and aligning with people who are enemies of choice is taken out of the equation. However, so was everything else. Now it’s a doc, UC, or a renegade midwife. Which will you choose?

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Don’t waste your time, Elizabeth.”… So I put it all in a delightful blog! 🙂
CLICK this image to sign this petition: North Carolina Medical Board: Allow Physicians to continue supervising homebirth CNMs in NC

 

Sexism and Childbirth Choices

QUESTION:  Is natural childbirth

sexist? Is medical childbirth sexist?

It depends. Before labeling, you really have to be fair and consider the source.

Michel Odent has been called or implied sexist by a certain infamous Dr. and anti-NCBers for providing info to empower women through realizing how to give birth naturally and the beauty of it.

The logic seems to be that he’s old, he’s a man, and anyone who would deny women of pain relief (medication) in childbirth is a sexist who believes women should suffer in childbirth. They also take issue that these philosophies “remove choices”, but I argue that a) so do anti NCBers, in trying to more strictly regulate birth options, and b) we are for INFORMED choices, but we disagree that all women’s choices are actually well-informed.

That’s not what natural birth is about, though. It’s not about being cruel and making women suffer. It’s not about removing WELL-informed choices. It’s about providing right info, and putting power that is life-altering back into the hands of women. If women knew just how powerful they were, this would actually be a threat to the patriarchy… !

So, no, I promise you, none of us thinks women should be in pain and suffering for their birth. In fact, I’ll be the first one to tell you to be kind to yourself. If the pain is unbearable to you, take the meds. And don’t be hard on yourself for making that choice. I don’t want to see women suffer, and I doubt that’s Odent’s intention, either.

So what IS this Odent physiology stuff about? It’s about the fact that women don’t automatically suffer just because the paternal obstetric model doesn’t relieve the poor, weak woman with pain meds. That’s right… not every woman is some poor, suffering child whose pain can only be relieved by some white (-coated) knight, who mercifully swoops in to bestow his paternal hit of drugs.

I have done it both ways (drugged and not). I have received pain meds and been ever so grateful. I have also wished I would lose consciousness and had an excruciating “natural” birth. And, I have been liberated from the cycle by owning my birth and surrendering to it– naturally and physiologically. Guess which birth was best?

I’m going to show you some things and then I want you to decide what is truly sexist: Giving power and information TO, or degrading and expecting less FROM?  These are merely examples of the rhetoric, and the personalities behind the rhetoric. Some opinions and values are shared by their friends, and some are not.

This is a point about what IS sexism and what IS real feminism; when people cry “sexist”, we need to consider the source.

[Values include: being a MILF (and making sure everyone knows you are)…]

Because only a twat would think that inductions weren't such great ideas.

Take away: Even Dr. Amy puts the smack down on rampant sexism coming from Aleah and friends.

 

This one needs explanation. Someone who left critical comments regarding my book also reviewed another book (which is what you are reading here, from Amazon). I think their words give added insight to their attitude towards feminism. I lump them in because these are all critics of NCB and usually self-proclaimed "feminists" or believers in equality and choice, and I think this is not always quite accurate.

These are just some examples of the differences between “sexism” in natural childbirth and sexism in anti-NCB. I know that some believers in natural birth happen to be sexist or perhaps even come from a women-as-subservient place, but you are certainly not finding any of that with me or Odent. We are champions of women, and it’s wrong to falsely paint these principles of biology as misogynist. I am a progressive, believe in freedom and equality, and have been called a feminist since I was a child– and I am proud of that. I believe women are amazing goddesses and deserve the utmost respect. I believe in a return to our innate maternal wisdom.

Okay, so Odent is a sexist for playing into woman’s birth goddess “fantasies” and putting women on a pedestal to encourage them to take back birth from the medical model, but people like those shown above are not sexist? Odent may have a penis, that is true. A man can be a feminist just as sure as a woman can be a chauvinist, however.

I’m not trying to be mean, honest. I’m just trying to say that…

It’s hard for me to really take seriously the opinions of people crying “misogynist” who think the standard of beauty is being a dyed blonde, breast job having, diamond wearing MILF nurse; who think “pushing a baby out your vag” is no big deal and even something to ridicule, and constantly calls people in a condescending tone “honey”, “love”, “sweetie”– when she isn’t busy using her favorite insult, “twat“. You dig what I’m saying?

Why should anyone take seriously opinions on Dr. Odent coming from these folks? All things considered, if these are your attitudes in life, your idea of what is “misogynist” falls a little flat with me. These to me are not true feminists and not actual advocates for women. These are the biggest misogynists of all. I certainly won’t listen to what SHE thinks WOMEN aren’t capable of. I wouldn’t even trust the limitations she puts on herself.

It’s worth noting that these are the same people who call my friend an “attention whore” for talking about her rape to explain her birth views, and bring it up as another source of ridicule.

These aren’t healthy, credible sources. Before you call misogyny, you must consider the source.

Okay, so, what is really sexist? The natural childbirth advocate who tells women how they can have the best birth for their self and their child without trauma? Or the anti-NCBer who tells women that they aren’t special and should shut up?

You decide. Who’s the sexist and who’s the feminist?

Are you for women, or are you against them? Do you believe in them, or do you think they are ridiculous?

You have to love yourself before you can love someone else. It seems we have an epidemic in our culture… a serious lack of understanding of our true worth.

If we’re going to give birth back to women, we need to start patching that up. You are not a pair of tits and a hair color. One day you’ll be old, or fat, or ugly. For now you are a youthful woman, perhaps fertile, certainly glorious and beautiful no matter who convinced you that you’re not. Your real power and beauty is something ageless and within. What’s it going to take to undo all this damage and convince our insecure women of this? Can it be undone?

Sorry, I wanted to keep this short, but I couldn’t leave you without ending it on this note.

A(n Open) Letter to Mark Zuckerberg

My Facebook page was recently issued a warning for sharing this picture (right before Thanksgiving, no less):

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote from Mark Zuckerberg’s Facebook page:

“I’m trying to make the world a more open place.”

 

 

 

 

I sent Mark the following message. (Won’t you join me?)

Hi Mark.

You want to make the world more open? So do I. The best start is in childhood. We need to be open, connected, and understanding. Raising these values from the ground up is key. Allowing this to take place beginning in infancy is the trick to building a better society. This is really hard to do, though, in a culture that sexualizes things which are truly more innocent, while condoning things which are clearly more overtly sexual in nature.

We are trying to support mothers and children in breastfeeding. I don’t know if you’re aware of this very BIG issue for women, and all of humanity, but education and support in this subject is needed since women worldwide are coming from an era of breastfeeding-as-gross and artificial formula as God. We are trying to show that this is a normal and healthy function that doesn’t need to be hidden, stigmatized, or silenced, and is actually better for human development. We want people to be open and free to believe in this and do it.

Yet, every time we show a photo of this, we get spanked. I just recently was fb spanked for showing the first photo here on my birth page on FB. Read that whole blog [post]– it’s really informative. In any case, you can see that her nipple is not even exposed, and a child is attached. This isn’t sexy, it’s mothering. It’s more National Geographic than Penthouse. If people consider this child exploitation or sexuality, that is a reflection of our repressed and perverse culture. It’s not in the spirit of connectedness or openness at all to censor these images. Yet, the photos which follow these ones on that blog are much more explicit. Women exploiting themselves sexually, which I am not even judging here, is allowed. These images are much more sexually provocative and yet they are sanctioned.

We feel in the mothering community that this is a gross double standard. Mothers, young mothers, natural parenting advocates and their pages, represent a large portion of your facebook users. I’m willing to bet somewhere between one half and one third of your users fall in these categories.

While probably not intentional, we feel this is a display of sexism, and it creates a lot of outrage in our communities every time one of these innocent photos results in any of us being warned or banned. It is NOT pornography. It is support, life, family, and beauty. Please understand the unfairness of the double standard.

I’m not trying to get anybody censored, not even the young women who choose to expose themselves to be provocative. I’m just trying to say that if FB is okay with them, why not us? We are trying to help make the world a better, safer, healthier, more open place. Breastfeeding moms are not accepted too often in our society, and we need to shed that stigma through education and honest representation. Please hear us.

Thanks, Elizabeth

 

Thanks for reading, and if you think this regulation is a failure and is keeping our society far from open, and perpetuating perversions, please consider letting Facebook/Mark Zuckerberg know.